Strikes Against Civilization

Dramatis Personae: Obama, Tyranosopher, and assorted characters meet in hell to discuss Obama’s “Signature Strikes”, the bombing by killer robots, of crowds of unknown people, on the chance an enemy would die.

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 Obama, face contorted by contradictory emotions, affects not to understand the strikes in Boston: “Why did young men who grew up and studied here, as part of our communities and our country, resort to such violence?… We will determine what happened. We will investigate any associations that these terrorists may have had.”

 Tyranosopher: The deepest association is with the breakdown of the spirit of the State of Law. In the West, now, as it happened 2,000 years ago, the spirit of republican law, equality, has broken down. Galla Placidia, made the “association” that counts.

Galla & Socrates: Absolute Power To Law Only

Galla & Socrates: Absolute Power To Law Only

 Galla reigned as a Roman empress, for more than three times as long as you will be president, and in much more trying times. She was acutely aware that the notion of State of Law was the fundamental bedrock of the State, and wrote eloquently about it.

 She explained that it is the Law, not individuals, who should reign. Equal law. Thus the law should apply absolutely, even to the absolute sovereign. The embodiment of the enforcement of this is the International Criminal Court.

 Treat people unequal, they will treat you unequal.

 Brainy Salafist: Obama, you have shown us the way. Killing civilians, you know nothing about, calling assassination of the innocent fighting terrorism. Hiding perfidiously, but ineffectually, behind the CIA to commit acts of wars against Pakistan, as the sedate New York Times’ editorial board pointed out in April 2013. 

 While you, in your unfathomable stupidly, advertized worldwide that you approved every single strike, as if you were anxious to be the first ever Nobel Peace laureate prosecuted for war crimes.

 Obama: I am the leader of the Greatest Nation on Earth, under God. That makes me infallible. Plus we the leaders of the USA have been careful to refuse to recognize the International Criminal Court.

 Brainy Salafist: Thus you, Obama, are just a mafioso leveraging A Secret Deal on Drones, Sealed in Blood (New York Times, April 2013 again). These “Signature Strikes” and “Crowd Killing” your National Security adviser and now CIA head, Brennan, obliquely confirmed their existence in front of the Senate. Many of your associates, Obama’s associates, have confirmed the existence of an association, the Assassination Panel at the White House. So we, the Salafists, imitate you, and kill people we know nothing about. Thanks for teaching us. We call it fighting terrorism too.

 Tyranosopher: Yes, an official assassination panel is something unparalleled in the history of all and any known states. Yet, after the Boston bombing you, Obama, declared that any bombing of civilians was an act of terror. But that’s what your “Signature Strikes” and “Crowd Killing” are all about. 

 Obama: I was shocked  when I became president, and I found out about “Signature Strikes” and “Crowd Killing”. But that’s the only game in town, and I am a team player. It works. We killed thousands of terrorists, using them.

 Tyranosopher: Try to pay attention to your own sick sport semantics. It’s not a game. Killing people does not make you player in a team. You were right to be shocked. Now you are shocking.

 Napoleon, Corsican dictator: “Even in war, moral power is to physical as three parts in one.” “Signature Strikes” bomb the USA’s moral power. The more you use them, the weaker you get. Your “Signature Strikes” are an anti-American strategy.

  Brainy Salafist: Obama you told us terror is the way. We want to be like you when we grow up. We want to do hundreds of “Signature Strikes“, on your territory, as you did, on ours, the House of Peace.

 Tyranosopher: Mr. President, I am afraid Salafists have been associating with the own past behavior of the USA, “Signature Strikes” its latest symbol. This is what a full enquiry would reveal.

 The notion of military-industrial complex was introduced by Eisenhower, as the greatest danger for the USA. At the height of the Cold War! Now we have something worse, the notion of enemy-industrial complex. It looks as if some in the government of the USA consider that to make sure of having enemies is the best way to have an industry.

 Obama: I did not start the violence in the Middle East.

 Tyranosopher: You sure did not. Arguably, from his own declarations, Muhammad started it, for the present period, in the sense that he revealed to his followers that the Persian-Babylonian-Zoroasthrian and Greco-Roman empires were exhausted, and could collapse if struck vigorously, hence allowing the Arabs to re-instigate the raiding they had been deprived of for more than a millennium.

 Young Salafist: Watch it, Tyranosopher, don’t you insult the Prophet! The Prophet is all I dream about, all the time, wet or not.

 Tyranosopher: You know very well, Young Salafist brimming with uncontrolled hormones, that this is what the fundamental Muslim texts say. Muhammad’s analysis was astute. The Greco-Roman and Persian empires were culprit each in their own way, of the tremendous war they made to each other, and they were on their knees. Muhammad’s hatred of the Jews grew from the Christians’ hatred of the Jews.

 By the way, if I want to insult long dead characters, I have the right to do so, according to my own religion.

 Young Salafist: You don’t have a religion, you believe in nothing, you insult everybody, even your friend Obama.

 Tyranosopher: Quite the opposite, I am helping everybody, by telling the truth. I believe in truth, and I believe in desperately searching for truth. That makes me a follower of the second most fundamental religion of man. And I subscribe to the first one, too, love.

 The truth is that Muhammad came from a prominent family in Mecca, but differently from the rest of them, was an analphabet. Somebody less charitable than me may think that had to do with his tough youth, and attending neurological problems he may have suffered from, PBUH! 

 Young Salafist: Spare me the sarcasm. Peace Be Upon Him, that man I dream about all the time.

 Tyranosopher: Are you gay? I find you rather sad. In any case, Muhammad gave too much of a military mien to Islam. But then, he had to, or Islam would not be on the map. After all, it’s the Roman military dictatorship, that decided to put Christianity, or, more exactly “Orthodox Catholicism”, on the map, and in command. They did so in a disastrous way. Later, the Franks found the right way: use the Church, to impose… progressive secularism.

 Obama: Can you guys come back to the subject at hand? Why such violence? Why couldn’t they all just play basket ball? That’s what I did, look where I am!

 Tyranosopher: Don’t worry the reservoir of potential Salafists inside the USA is a small fraction of that it is in a country such as France. One will hold them back with the idea of the republic, not by taking their rights away, even before judging them.

 You, Obama, could afford to not take your studies seriously. You were the missing link. Your life experience was, from the start, out of the ordinary. You lived in a mansion in Indonesia, with servants’ quarters. You went to the top private school in Hawai’i, Punahou. You also went to Harvard, same as your father, and, because your father had been there (“legacy admission“). Harvard is where the leaders are selected, and the spider web of worldwide leaders is set-up. Most recent USA presidents came from the Ivy League. Aka the Evil League.

 Even the guy who organized Pearl Harbor, the head of the imperial navy, admiral Yamamoto, went to Harvard. Speak of a guy who “studied here”! And let me exceptionally not mention the Nazis.

 It’s not about smarts, but about connections with wealth, as an owner, look at the Bushes, Kennedys, or… as a servant. For compliance, look at Bill Clinton, who did exactly what Goldman-Sachs told him to do, in a Faustian contract. Clinton went to Yale, still Ivy League.

 The contract made him swear. But he did what he was told to do, namely to deregulate finance in a way never seen before in the history of civilization. The total devolution of the public to the private. OK, something like that happened to the republic in Florence, when it turned into “The Prince”, plutocracy, basically a few private banks. (But then notice that Italy fell off civilization for several centuries.) So now here we are, neo-feudalism coalescing.

 Harvard plays into a form of violence. Its connection with various bloody dictators were left unpunished, even unpublished. In economics, many of its professors have published academic papers claiming that transferring more assets to rich people was what the Harvard doctors recommended (allusion to austerity propaganda from famous Harvard professors: Reinhart. Rogoff, Alesina, Ardagna).

 Under the guise of fair, balanced, learned, equal opportunity, extremely stealthy methods of vicious exploitation have been invented. They are different from those denounced in the past, in the period from 1648 (year of parliamentary revolutions in England and Paris, La Fondre) until Proudhon, Marx, etc.

 Obama: Once again Tyranosopher you are drifting through an immense historical landscape that seems to have nothing to do with the Jihadists in our midst.

 Tyranosopher: The most important connections are the ones that have not been made explicit yet, because they are deeper.

 As I was saying, the USA outsmarted the Western European powers, partly deliberately, partly by serendipity, in a sort of selection of the most effective behaviors, however devious. Devious support, by the USA, for the worst of Islam was crucial, in the rise of the present day Jihadism.

 Young Jihadist: See, Obama, you are devious, even though you don’t know about it.

 Tyranosopher: A preferred devious method, has been the traditional one of dividing to conquer. To enact these divisions, support was given to extremely violent enemies of “American” values. Including various fascists, in particular the Soviets, the Nazis, and violently regressive Islamists. Those enemies of the USA turned out to be its best tools. 

 Such fascist embodiments are unsustainable, making them valuable. The mess they create leads to divisions, hence easy pickings. Since 1945, contrarily to the cautious policies of Britain and France, Roosevelt’s USA threw its mighty support to Salafists, starting with the Saudis. (For comparison, the Brits annihilated the fiercest Wahhabist army, not even two decades prior; most of the 9/11 highjackers were Saudis.)

 CIA support was given to Khomeini’s followers, in 1953, and still later to Pakistani Fundamentalists, then to bin Laden (and the SIA), etc.. Thus we see it was more than a plot. It was a plotted strategy, that unfolded over 60 years (the support of Bush II for various Muslim extremists in Iraq was a continuation of that strategy: let the museums and archeological sites be looted, help the fanatics, bury the secularists).

 This strategy is coming to an end for diverse reasons. Terror by drones the way practiced presently by the Obama administration tries to extend it, but it is not sustainable. However, it’s causing, long term, tremendous civilizational damage. The West is losing credibility.

 Obama: “Civilizational damage”? What kind of weird notion is this?

 Tyranosopher: Civilizational standards are not just what make a civilization worth defending. They constitute a fundamental military asset, as Nap said. Civilizational standards are how the Athenians won at Marathon, or Salamis against the immense might of the giant Persian empire. On the verso, uncowed Sparta vanished from history, because its civilization was racist and plutocratic, something that leads to unrecoverable stupidity, among other problems.

 The drone program may have killed only a few thousand people, but the bombing of civilization itself it wrought is unequalled. (Although it may still be reverted at this point, should one be contrite enough about it.)

 Faisal Shahzad, USA citizen of Pakistani origin: “I entered a 2010 guilty plea, to try to set off a car bomb in Times Square, and I justify targeting civilians by telling the judge, ‘When the drones hit, they don’t see children’.

 Obama: I am the leader of the Greatest Nation on Earth, under God. I say this all the time. Pay attention. I am not your average terrorist.

 Tyranosopher: You call the ones you killed, terrorists. Just like in Vietnam. However, the law says that people are innocent, until proven to be terrorists. So you do not respect the most fundamental pre-condition to law, namely that punishment never precedes conviction.

 We know for example that a 16 year old USA born citizen was killed on a beach in a USA drone attack (apparently with a number of other teens), in one of the “Signature Strikes”.  Such an assassination, in the name of civilization, is the signature of a failed civilization. For such a crime, in old republican Rome, you would have been executed the “old fashion way“. (The one Roman president Nero was condemned to by the Senate.)

 Where are the excuses for that, killing boys having fun on a beach? Where is the enquiry? Or do you, Obama, president of the USA, consider, justify and order, killing teens on beaches on the other side of the planet? Explain to me why this is not much worse than the worse pedophilia?

 Obama: As I always say, I am the leader of the Greatest Nation on Earth, under God. I am not a terrorist, by definition, but the very definition of respectability. Fear me.

 Young Salafist: If we killed you, Obama, you, and your followers would not be as respected. However we will not kill you, because you are our best agent. We kill for the Greatest Religion on Earth, in the name of the one and only God. We are not stuck in one nation, our house is the House of the rising Sun, the House Of Peace, the Ummah. My universal God is better than your national god. Watch me and other martyrs die for it.

  Obama: You can’t kill me, I am invincible. Wherever I go, there is an army protecting me. Same for my family. Taxpayers will support me and my family forever, making me forever invincible. As they did with other great USA leaders.

 Tyranosopher: Our Salafist friend here is correct, Greatest Religion beats “Greatest Nation”.  Mr. President, you are too fond of calling the USA “the greatest notion of Earth”. This does not serve the country well. Not at all.

 Obama, laughing: Nation, not notion. Keep your words cogent.

 Tyranosopher: Calling the USA “the greatest nation on Earth” is not just a ridiculous notion. It is also extremely dangerous. There is a plethora of examples in history about the extreme lethality of nationalistic hubris. Athens went down that road to hell.

 Obama: I will remember you for the next drone kill list. See who is lethal.

 Tyranosopher: You feel lethal, as a child, but supreme thoughts kill better. All you are doing, is messing up civilization. Killing crowds, just because some enemies may be there, is the end of any pretense to civilized behavior. Flaunting it, is an attitude that aggravates the practice. 

 The USA is not the first democracy proclaiming, urbi et orbi, that it had a right to kill innocent civilians. It never ended well. it’s a philosophical red line. When a civilization crosses it, it dies. Such a murderous hubris was the proximal cause of Athens’ downfall.

 “Signature strikes” the killing of civilians associated by mere physical proximity, is as low a notion as humanity ever got. You do not even pretend to hate them, or that you want to eat them.

 In the hierarchy of anti-civilizational values, “Signature Strikes” are lower than torture, because torture comes from giving some value to the person one tortures. One values the knowledge that person may have, or one appreciates the pain one inflicts to them, or one values theirmind enough to break it.

 Signature strikes are lower than hate crimes. Signature strikes are lower than even cannibalism. Signature strikes are all about smitting people utterly, as if they were insects.

 Signature strikes makes the president of the USA in a devil Picasso, signing horror with pride of office. It’s beyond terrorism. It enrages people worldwide so much, it does not even bring terror. It only brings horror for the absence of values you embody. It deserves a new name, horrorism. 

 American historian of the racist type: Tyranosopher, I would hate to call you naïve. Yet, face the facts: in WWII, we imprisoned citizens of the USA of second and third generation, if they had some Japanese ancestors. It was brutal. But the reputation of the USA as a brutal power serves the USA well. If, centuries ago, the European colons in North America had not killed nearly all the Natives, the USA would be like Bolivia or Peru. Look even at Mexico: by 1600CE, there were basically only a million natives left. Too many. Now Mexico is like half Indian.

 Tyranosopher: I am not naïve, just the opposite, you are. What worked before, to establish an empire, against naïve Neolithic Natives, can have the exact opposite effect, trying to grab resources from the rest of the world. each “Signature Strike” may kill one hater of the West, and create ten thousands. Better get your anti-missiles working well against Pakistani ICBMs…

 Herodotus, Greek historian: A more general problem is that, by deciding who, among citizens of the USA, would live or die, at your own whim, Obama, you have made yourself, symbollically and practically, into what the Greeks called a tyrannos, a tyrant. As I said of the Athenians under tyranny: …”they let themselves be beaten, since they worked for a master…” To establish new wisdom as Tyranosopher does, one has to be unique. But when a politician reigns as one, that’s a tyrant.

  Obama: Signatures strikes are effective. They show the power of the USA. Not only we can do it physically, but we have the moral strength to do it.

  Tyranosopher: Tyrannies are always short term effective. You do not know what “moral” means. It means: “sustainable”. A traditional war, although with supersonic bombers, drones and smart bombs, as the French republic does in Mali, is indefinitively sustainable, fair and square. But the French fight warriors, on the battlefield. They are not killing crowds of unknown people, not fighting anybody. That earns them respect, even from their enemies.

  Whereas Carthage, long a top civilization, was undone by its immoral morality, killing innocent children. You are making the USA into a modern Carthage.

  Obama: Carthage was defeated by Roman armies, not morals.

  Tyranosopher: Conventional wisdom, the seduction of the superficial, that’s what you want to overcome. Instruct yourself, young man, lest you came to be known as Obabad. The Greeks called barbararians ba-ba, because they thought like children. You add badness to the mix. Obabad.

 The planned annihilation of Carthage in a Third Punic war, was hotly debated in the Roman Senate. Many, including the imperator put in command of the destroying army, were fully aware that Rome was crossing a philosophical red line. That transgression could, and even would, bring Rome’s destruction. This was said explicitly at the time (source: Polybius). The tough-as-diamond Roman imperator cried, as he saw the great metropolis burn under the extermination assault of his crack legions. he knew Rome was sealing her fate.

  Yet, it was foreordained. The fact that Carthage had sacrificed children to the fire made the difference, in the minds of the Roman senators and the military. It was the excuse that allowed to forget the real reason for wanting the annihilation of Carthage.

  You, Obama, sacrifice children to the fire, including the occasional, highly symbolic American child. Killing other people’s children, on the other side of the earth, does not make it any less so.

  Don’t deny.

  If you insist to deny that you are flaunting child killing as a new bedrock for civilization, then make full light about who, among your drone people, decided to kill that 16 year old American born boy, and how. And if it was a honest mistake, so to speak, let’s confront it. Only then can you talk to history with an honest face.

***

Patrice Ayme

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22 Responses to “Strikes Against Civilization”

  1. pshakkottai Says:

    Brilliant essay, Patrice.

  2. Dominique Deux Says:

    I understand you are targeting mainly the American public and therefore have to bow to Americans’ idiosyncrasies about their uniqueness. Yet I find bizarre that you should harp on and on about the killing of an American citizen, as if this was morally worse than killing a non-US citizen. Unless claiming the US is in a state of war with the rest of the world, any such killing is murder, period. I fail to see any difference.

    In the late eighteenth Century, a French frigate was called “l’Insurgente”. This bore testimony to the fact that “insurgents” was the proud name American independence fighters gave themselves. Yet when I told an American correspondent that “insurgents” were once a proud and flattering appellation in his own country, he was aghast – to him insurgents were rabble, only fit for machine-gunning down. The idea that America owed its birth to “insurgents” was beyond him and he resented it as an insult.

    Americans need to stop making an unholy mix of “insurgents”, “militants” and “terrorists” – all of which are different animals – and declaring open season on the lot of them as a matter of policy. Unless, once again, they wish to be seen as enemies to the whole world.

    Incidentally l’Insurgente was the first French casualty in the French-US “quasi-war” in February 1799.

    • Patrice Ayme Says:

      dear Dominique: Let’s backtrack to the early 1930s. suppose you had told the Germans:”Oh, you bad with Poles! You want to kill Poles, so you can reconnect with East Prussia!’ They would have scoffed; reconnecting was an absolute good. Down with Czescks, Poles, Hungarians, Lithuanians, etc was an absolute good.
      Yet, if one had told Germans: well, go on like that, and you will unleash fascism, and become its main victims, one rolled out there an argument that had meaning FOR THEM.

      As it is, the USA, and, in particular the Evil League, is the head of the snake. The worldwide snake. If they can take out, coldly an obviously innocent 16 year old boy on a beach on the other side of the earth, they obviously can take out Evil League professors.

      The thinking elite was crucial in the rise of Nazism. Right now the USA elite thinks on too small a scale. And the Europeans are just parrots. Meerkler is just a plutocratic American device. So is her central bank president who was using R-R a few weeks ago.

      So talking to Obama is talking to his servants, the European servants of Wall Street, in control of the EU, right now!
      PA

    • Patrice Ayme Says:

      Dominique: BTW, the world economic system, as set-up, is an exploitation system that benefits the USA. The dollar, in combination with the Saudi family, is not a war, because it has been won, and was followed by occupation, and exploitation. The system is close to self contradiction, as the Saudis collaborate, not just with Wall Street, but also with the Muslim Brotherhood (real head: Ayman Al Zawahiri, bin Laden;’s mentor, still at large!)

      Although I did finish harping about the boy, most of the essay was not about that. I know Americans enough to know that they do not vibrate about imperialist exploitation, worldwide. Because, to start with, they do not embrace the concept of exploitation, even inside the USA. We are dealing with a country where the filthy rich, paying little ot no taxes, are, systemically, called “philanthropists”, although their so-called “philanthropy” is a crucial part of the exploitation system.
      PA

  3. old geezer pilot Says:

    I have a theory I call the rule of 100.

    For every innocent man, woman, or child who is killed or maimed by soldiers or drone attacks, there will be 100 people in the family, the workplace, the clubs or associations, who will vow REVENGE. Thus, the whole idea of “eliminating terrorists” by this method is self-defeating.

    And insane.

    • Patrice Ayme Says:

      Insane, except IF the real aim, as I pointed out, is to create a thriving enemy-industrial complex.

      Methinks too that the multiplier may be 10,000 rather than just 100. Or worse. Anybody, worldwide, learning about Obama;s hubris, being police, judge, and executioneer, may feel, somewhat, to some extent, that the number one reflex of a civilized person would be to eliminate such a menace. I just acquired, two days ago, a newly published book of Hitler’s tapes (so to speak; the conversations were actually taken down by stenographers). What’s amazing is that Hitler does not come out as a moral monster. Although, of course, he was.

      But it’s certainly monstruous to even make the sort of sick “jokes” Obama made about killing people with drones.
      PA

  4. Martin Lack Says:

    I hope you saw this piece on the Yale Forum on Climate Change and the Media:
    http://www.yaleclimatemediaforum.org/2013/04/a-partial-eclipse-of-earth-news-by-boston-marathon-bombings/

    For once, I must agree with your questioning Obama’s feigned incredulity… This is because 9/11 was the wake up call all US citizens should have heeded. Thirteen years later, there is no excuse for not understanding why so many are literally driven to insanity with rage about the things that the US government does.

    Although I would maintain that the USA was right to eliminate OBL, they have to accept the consequences at home… This is not an attempt to justify terrorism, however. It is just an appeal for realism and intellectual honesty from those who consider no air space to be foreign.

    Unless, of course, that air space is Syrian. Then, it seems, no amount of crime against humanity will be sufficient for the US to intervene. I guess that this is either because “they are only Muslims” and/or no significant oil supplies could be thereby misappropriated without starting WW3.

    • Patrice Ayme Says:

      Dear Martin: Thank you for showing up and reading my prose. I have been derelict visiting your site (and Paul’s!). I am travelling, alone with my three year old daughter, so you can imagine.

      Eliminating OBL was just eliminating a witness. It’s more like a mafia killing (OK, according to the technicals as they are related, his death was “accidental”). The real brain was, all along, the Muslim Brother Al Zawahiri. An Egyptian, already a plotter against Sadate. The Brothers work hand in hand with Saudis (although they hate each other).I have to extend that conversation in hell…

      Thanks for the link, no, I saw nothing, I will read it, and comment… I saw an excellent BBC show on animal intelligence. Some birds exhibit the same intelligenc on some tests, as a seven year old. The test was roughly connected to making a situation better, filling up a container with stones to get the water to go up (and bring within reach the juicy worm). No doubt that, considering how they behave, many of the worthies in control of Western politics would fail it….

      Meanwhile, I have to go buy some food, including milk for baby…
      PA

      • Martin Lack Says:

        Re: BBC – You admit then that UK has some good points? Bon journee. 🙂

        • Patrice Ayme Says:

          Martin: Of course the UK has some good points! I think it had the best university system… Even though that was even when Cambridge & Oxford were private. I subscribe to Nature, New Scientist, The Economist, etc. In many ways, France and Britain clearly exhibit many characteristics in common that come from them being the same polity, forever.

          I sincerely believe it’s too bad Jeanne d’Arc was not burned two years earlier. D’Arc was an anti-hero: she, or rather those behind her, broke the agreement to end the Franco-French-London-Paris war by an injection of Armagnac, Aragon, etc (extreme south “France”) and norther Spain.

          BTW my ancestor was made into a count by the king of Arago in the 8C… So I’m not rabidly anti-Arago. But fact is the queen-with-four-crowns behind D’Arc was fighting both Paris, London, and the University…

          I find the rabid rivalry some affect between France and England of extremely bad and ridiculous taste… Uncomprehensible, except as a testimony of utmost silliness…
          PA

  5. Patrice Ayme Says:

    Martin: I read this very interesting link you gave to Yale.
    http://www.yaleclimatemediaforum.org/2013/04/a-partial-eclipse-of-earth-news-by-boston-marathon-bombings/

    They are careful not to draw any deep conclusion, though!

    I sent them this comment:

    A much simpler explanation is that the plutocrats in power want to feed the paranoia that profits to the enemy-industrial complex.

    That also has the advantage to imprint in the public’s minds that what goes through the minds of a few psychopaths is much more important that climate disruption. Hence the profits of the fossil fuel plutocrats shall keep on thriving.Of elementary manipulations of minds, much profits can be made by the oligarchies in power in the USA.
    It will be interesting to see if they publish it…
    PA

  6. Obama Hiring Muslim Deputies In USA Who Can’t Even Write Or Speak English Well…Terrorizing Americans | One God News Says:

    […] Strikes Against Civilization (patriceayme.wordpress.com) […]

  7. TomAlex Says:

    “For every innocent man, woman, or child who is killed or maimed by soldiers or drone attacks, there will be 100 people in the family, the workplace, the clubs or associations, who will vow REVENGE.”
    Only works for those who would have sought revenge whether you had killed innocents or not. The fact is that the West treats moslem lives with **much** more respect than say christian lives. (Just one)Case in point: Yugoslavia, a country that was bombed back to the stone age, with radio stations, passenger trains and commerical car production factories being targets. Worse yet, every time there was ‘collateral damage’, the verdict for the NATO spokesman was ‘therefore we need tto intensity bombing’. Contrast that with coalition troops statements when drones kill afghan civillians. Or contrast the tolerance of the 80 day Yugoslavia bombing campaign-a country that had done NOTHING to any NATO country to the pressure on Israel to end its response to attacks by Hizbullah in 2006 or Hamas rocket attacks.(No such pressure is put on say Turkey when it goes after kurdish guerillas or when it invades other countries). If the initial argument were true there should have been lots of Serb terrorist attacks all over Europe and the US, while that count is 0. Why the life of a serb, albanian or israeli civillian, woman or child is less important than that of a moslem, is simple: Serbs, albanians or Israelis do not engage in terrorism. Moslems do. The moral is too obvious, unfortunately.

    • Patrice Ayme Says:

      Dear TomAlex: That there are inequities, no doubt. I am all for a Kurdish nation/country/sovereign state. Kurds have existed for twice longer than Islam. At least.

      The question of the Serbs was, and still is, delicate. Initially France and the UK got the UN mantle to bring some mitigation in BOSNIA. France was in a quandary: because of WWI and WWII, and the seven centuries long struggle against invading Muslims, Serbia was seen as a fundamental, ancestral and intrinsic ally of… France. However, the bombing of Sarajevo by Serb like forces had to stop.

      So it is the French Republic that used force first to gain commanding heights, and then direct counter-strike shelling against rogue, Serb like elements. That was heart wrenching for many French, and the French military, but most efficient; the bombing of Sarajevo stopped. Two years later the USA was dragged in the conflict. Not just because France and the UK did not have the muscle, but not to start again on the slippery slope of the 1930s, with the USA waiting outside to rip the fruits of victory.

      So, yes, the Serbs did not do anything against France, and still France attacked. However, one should reframe the contrast into: rogue Serb elenents against the Republic.

      Right now I think Serbia should join the EU ASAP. I am not liking what is going on with obviously Serb populations under Kosovar control, though. I think that should not be, all the more lots of Kosovo seems to be all about organized crime.

      In any case, the repression against rogue elements in seerbia is a backhanded compliment: the rest of the West treats the Serbs as fully evolved adults, nothing that a could spanking cannot remedy, whereas many a Muslim is treated like a hopelessly enraged mental retard…
      PA

      • Tom Alex Says:

        My comment was not about Bosnia, but about the Kossovo bombing. BTW, I can fully understand why bosnian serbs, who used to live in harmony with croats and moslems for 50 years as equal yugoslav citizens would be happy to continue living as equal yugoslav citizens, but not under Izbegovic’s saria law or Tudzman ‘thank god my wife is neither serb, nor jewish’. That this led to a war and that that war was led by the Karadzic and Mladic (or the Nasser Oric and AlQueda on the other side) is a disgrace and for which Europe with the hasty recognitions had a role. For Kossovo, it’s even weaker, because that time the bombing was not to stop a massacre, but to essentially deny the Kossovo Serbs the same rights(i.e. self-determination) claimed by the Kossovo Albanians. And of course the organized crime accusations should not have been a surprise. Plus, I have said it again that the fact that the same Ahtisaari who brokered a peace deal and the end of the bombing under the condition that Kossovo would not become independent was the one who cosigned independence. Which is an excellent selling tool for the Ahmadinezad’s and the Un’s of N. Korea for their people: ” Look what western guarantees are worth”

        Anyway, my point was that the civillian travelling in the train, being in the house, working in the radio station or the car factory that got bombed is no rogue element. And their family and people may have more of a reason to be mad at the west than the afghan counterpart-after all Serbia was not giving sanctuary to people plotting twin tower attacks.
        I was in Paris in 95 and remember that initial suspicions for the metro bombings included serbs-that, as we know was never the case.

        So with your last paragraph we are in complete agreement: Everybody else except muslims is treated as an adult or more than an adult, even though their ‘crimes’ pale in fornt of the pampered muslim counterparts. And while they have every reason to be mad, they do not do the things their pampered counterparts do.

        • Patrice Ayme Says:

          Dear TomAlex: Indeed. Many who profess to love Muslim, treat them often as children who do not know any better, and can have a rabid, vicious, oppressive, inhuman religion. That’s a self contradiction. (Several of my best friends in life have been, and are, Muslim, and I talk to them about Islam, just as I write here, and often, worse! They love it!)

          It’s actually even more complicated: the essentiallity of Muslims are not arab, and the bad, real bad current in Islam, Wahhabism, that can be tracked to somebody called Hanbal, 12 centuries ago (he died in 855 CE if I remember correctly!) is a freakish show behind which the Saudis are sheltering their personal family terror.

          There are actually forms of Islam (such as in Senegal) which are 100% Western compatible (but that was NOT the case of the Islam practiced by the Turcs, and precisely why they embraced it, 1,000 years ago, as a war metaphysics).

          I wish Serbia will integrate Europe fully and make its voice heard from within. European institutions are such that one voice, even small, can block everything. That’s why Turkey (admitted to candidacy 52 years ago!) is actually further from admission than ever, and why Slovenia could block Croatia for several years, until they figured out the details of the Gulf they have in common…

          I do agree with you that it would have been better that Yougoslavia, a remarkable example of integration, had stayed in one piece and been admitted into Europe as one piece.

          This is Joan of Arc anniversary today, and I wish I could find the time to write something against her and nationalism in general… Extending roughly our joint reflections…
          PA

  8. J from New York Says:

    “It is very simple: drones should be used only on battlefields.”
    Please define battlefield. The “old” definition doesn’t really apply anymore.

    • Patrice Ayme Says:

      J from New York: Of course it does. See Mali. What needs to be done is to search, research, and destroy the contrary ideolgy, then identify its source, and funding: Saudi Arabia. Then deliver an ultimatum. If said ultimatum is not respected, attack in a conventional war. Voila!
      PA

  9. pshakkottai Says:

    Hi Patrice: I stumbled on this recently at
    http://www.livescience.com/23298-carthage-graveyard-not-child-sacrifice.html

    with this text :
    Carthage burial grounds called Tophet holds urns with the cremated remains of thousands of babies. While some say Tophet is a site of child sacrifice, others contend it was used to bury babies and fetuses.
    Credit: Dennis Jarvis, Flickr
    View full size image

    A Carthaginian burial site was not for child sacrifice but was instead a graveyard for babies and fetuses, researchers now say.

    A new study of the ancient North African site offers the latest volley in a debate over the primary purpose of the graveyard, long thought to be a place of sacred sacrifice.

    “It’s all very great, cinematic stuff, but whether that was a constant daily activity ― I think our analysis contradicts that,” said study co-author Jeffrey Schwartz of the University of Pittsburgh. A movie in U tube shows details at Carthage : The Roman Holocaust. The motive seems to have been pure propaganda and robbery like USA attacking Iraq.

    • Patrice Ayme Says:

      Dear Partha: I will read the link you gave. However, let me say that the question of human sacrifices in Carthage is in no doubt. Detailed discoveries were even made recently pertaining to this. It has nothing to do with Iraq. Carthage, initially a Phoenician colony (we use Phoenician alphabet, basically) was also African, and, for many centuries, unequalled at the forefront of civilization, in some dimensions.

      In the past, human sacrifices were ubiquitous. After the Celts invaded Rome, the Romans made human sacrifices (and were very ashamed thereafter). The Celts made massive human sacrifices of Roman officers burned alive (not a smart idea, as they subsequently found out).

      It’s to the credit of the Romans that they outlawed religions calling for human sacrifices. That means there is a precedent for outlawing nasty forms of religions.

      Carthage changed completely before the Third Punic war, and was destroyed because she had become more advanced, democratically than Rome. Her destruction was the crime that killed Rome. The Imperator who led the annihilation was fully conscious of this, and he cried as he imagined the same would happen to Rome. Because he cried, and it was witnessed by his friend the philosopher and historian Polybius, Rome is still around today.

      Unfortunately, Carthage is not. And the religious fanatics presently in charge there all too much, have dishonored, and still dishonor, her spirit. especially her later, redempted spirit.
      PA

    • Patrice Ayme Says:

      I read it. Very interesting debate, thanks. The report though mixes the Baal problem and the Carthage problem. There is no doubt the Hebrew hated Baal and were very unfair to it. Baal reigned over the Middle East for about a millennium, maybe more. Although Baal inspired Carthage, Carthage developed its own religion.

      BTW, there is evidence that (some) human sacrifices in the area survived the destruction of Carthage in the remote places, until the Christian terror of the Fourth Century.
      PA

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